In X4, it was possible to overlap RGB transparency over RGB bitmap (for example a RGB[0,0,0] rectangle with gradient transparency over a photo) and make a color proof of the result correctly without merging them both into a new RGB bitmap first. But, X5 cannot color proof it correctly. Any idea? Is this known? It was damn flexible and nice in X4! :(
David Milisock:What this means is that NO SHIFT in display should happen when we convert the base vector fill from RGB to CMYK. RESULT in multi-color model mode none ocurrs, (proper) in soft proof a shift happens (improper). The second reason is that the transparency when applied is alos in gamut for the destination CMYK space and the RGB space so we can shift modes back anbd forth without any display *** as long as we do not soft proof. Hence this is a soft proof error, if it were an rendering order error the problem would appear when we went to CMYK mode with soft proof off.
The second reason is that the transparency when applied is alos in gamut for the destination CMYK space and the RGB space so we can shift modes back anbd forth without any display *** as long as we do not soft proof.
Hence this is a soft proof error, if it were an rendering order error the problem would appear when we went to CMYK mode with soft proof off.
Oh, I read over and over and over and finally I found I have a faulty assumption! You are right! It's only about softproofing and without it, everything seems working properly. I thought I should have soft proof "on" all the time and otherwise it's not taking CMYK profile into account. This was my mistake. So, without using this new soft proofing thing I have no remaining issues so far. Furthermore, I checked this with Acrobat, too and found the softproofing could be quite misleading. Even if I have to use it, I should flatten these effects to RGB bitmaps to expect the softproof show something meaningful. In this case, the rendering order I've mentioned has nothing to do with Corel obviously. There's a problem with soft proofing itself. Thanks for your patience, David!
I don't know where your from or what profiles you're using. To help you we woul dneed to know the proofing parameters that you're uisng. It seefs that European profiles are (shall we say Interesting).
Also are you working RGB and Proofing CMYK or Working RGB and Proofing RGB.
David Milisock
Here you will find a RAR archive which contains the CDR example and my screenshot showing the gradient with brownish hue.
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/5/30/2461193//badproof.rar
Actually, the color management needs an additional option for "effects blending". Because, currently you should either set it to RGB or CMYK but doing so forces you to use the corresponding palette. Contrary, it was really far better in X4 and I was hoping X5 to handle blending color space on per-object or per-effect basis but now this is too limited. I can only hope this to be fixed soon...
coreltom:Because, currently you should either set it to RGB or CMYK but doing so forces you to use the corresponding palette.
Not quite true, X5 is intuitive in that it automatically selects the palettes for the document color mode, X5 allows you to use RGB, Grayscale, CMYK and spot colors in the same document with the only high resolution multi-color model display in the graphics world that I know of.
I have a section in my book on X5 color management available at www.graphictechnology.com that covers expanded gamut printing utilizing native color output.
coreltom:Contrary, it was really far better in X4
Actually X4's display was not capable of the above mentioned task. Again X4 and X3 utilized either RGB or CMYK rendering for effects like X5 but the display as not capable of producing the accuracy that X5 now can.
coreltom:I was hoping X5 to handle blending color space on per-object or per-effect basis but now this is too limited. I can only hope this to be fixed soon...
I wouldn't hold my breath on this one no application I know of can do this and the programming complexity in huge.
David Milisock:Not quite true, X5 is intuitive in that it automatically selects the palettes for the document color mode.
David, that's the drawback itself or I'm surely missing something because let's read what it says: "The primary color mode affects how colors are blended in effects such as fills, blends and transparencies. It determines the default color palette of the active document as well as the default color mode for exporting files ....(etc)" So far it looks good but, imagine; in X4 it was possible to view CMYK colors on the palette and forcing it to blend transparencies using RGB. Now, as I switch to RGB in X5, it changes my palette to RGB and it's very annoying and not something I need. Other than that, I find Corel is ultimately the best application up to date in multicolor managed workflow! So, do you have any solution for keeping the palette CMYK and only forcing it to blend transparencies with RGB?
David Milisock:Actually X4's display was not capable of the above mentioned task. Again X4 and X3 utilized either RGB or CMYK rendering for effects like X5 but the display as not capable of producing the accuracy that X5 now can.
Yes! I admit it looks stunning. But what about the file that I've sent? I don't think such a brownish gradient stands for accuracy. No idea?
David Milisock:I wouldn't hold my breath on this one no application I know of can do this and the programming complexity in huge.
Now, that's understandable :) But, I know Corel will be the first if that'd happen one day.Btw, thanks for all the answers...
coreltom:So far it looks good but, imagine; in X4 it was possible to view CMYK colors on the palette and forcing it to blend transparencies using RGB.
My first questrion is why would youwant to? A press work flow needs cmyk rendering for proper color, a cmyk job being converted to web can have its rendering changed by chanfing the document color mode and web only work should be rendered as RGB only.
X5 allows you to show both the CMYK and RGB palettes simutaneoulsy, chooss windows menu /color paletts, default is always the document color mode and you can select any other.
coreltom:showing the gradient with brownish hue.
If this (brownish hue) is what your display is showing you have alot more problems then Corel color management.
The eyedropper readings of your gradient shows a neutral sRGB gray. If your display shows anything else get help quick.
David Milisock:My first questrion is why would youwant to? A press work flow needs cmyk rendering for proper color, a cmyk job being converted to web can have its rendering changed by chanfing the document color mode and web only work should be rendered as RGB only.
Yes, you're right. It's not my intention making web output using process colors. I was asking this because I always use RGB images and CMYK vectors in my work. This allows me to produce Native files you know. This way I can submit press jobs across different countries and standards and leave the CMYK separation to their own RIP.
David Milisock:X5 allows you to show both the CMYK and RGB palettes simutaneoulsy, chooss windows menu /color paletts, default is always the document color mode and you can select any other.
Now that's great finally I realized this with your help! :))) No more problems about the palette issue. Cool!Although, the other problem persists as now I will reply to your next answer. ;)
It's right the color picker reads it correct and the color picker's own swatch shows a neutral gray because the gradient object is a RGB0,0,0 fill with gradient transparency and the underlying image is a desaturated sRGB, too. Moreover, I can see this transparency composition correctly (I mean gray) on my display until I turn on softproofing. Why does softproof show it brownish like you see in the image below?
My good man you have an issue. Seeing things as they are suppossed to be is sometimes a shocker. Blame the Euroscale profile you're using for soft proofing. Corel is showng the conversion properly if you do the conversion manually in CMYK mode and see the RGB to CMYK soft proof thet are identical.
"If I do the conversion manually in CMYK mode" ?!? :) Oh sorry David. Now, if you still have patience on this issue I will outline it better. Please follow these steps and see I'm right in my complaint:
1) Open the CDR I've sent, group the image and rectangle2) Duplicate this group and convert it to image using Bitmaps / Convert to Bitmap.. RGB Color 24 bit
See, the one converted to bitmap is properly simulated by softproof while the group itself with transparency fails. Makes sense?
Moreover, you can't put the blame on Euroscale profile because, honestly every other profile has the same issue and the simulated grey ends up other fantastic hues. Try it please, I'm sure you will notice. And the bitter fact is, X4 didn't have this problem...
My current workaround is grouping these transparencies and merging them to a single RGB image before to export PDF.
But the problem seems like X5 cannot process a transparent RGB object in the background before to make its softproof. Because, even a 50% solid transparency which should still end up with a neutral look comes as pinky or something like that unless I flatten it (by converting it to image).
Please help :) :)
-edit (find the above example in CDR below) ..definitely shocking. :Phttp://www.fileden.com/files/2009/5/30/2461193//badproof2.rar
Also where has "Apply ICC profile" option gone under "Convert to Bitmap" parameters? :( Ouch...
Sorry for bombarding you with the questions but this is becoming very interesting at the moment. Because, if I move the half of the gradient outside of the RGB image and then convert both to a new RGB image then it seems like the outer part of this gradient (which is converted to bitmap with transparency "on" for the trailing part) is translated in CMYK space and it looks brown in softproof. I just don't understand. Why wouldn't I blend a few RGB images and/or vectors having RGB solid color and expect to softproof their look under a certain CMYK output profile? It's just working flawless in X4...seriously! :o
David, forgive me asking this. Are you the developer of this color management system or you just provide support?