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A question for those doing sign work.

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Top 500 Contributor
West Coast of Florida
Male
Jimmy Hill posted on Wed, Apr 18 2012 5:27

I was wondering what format you are using when you export to a Roland Verscamm printer.

RGB or CYKM

Ever once in a while I run into the problem of creating something using a color that includes either a red or blue that the printer won't print correctly.

When creating graphics are you only working with RGB colors?

The whole issue of color management is very interesting and also difficult to understand.

I am using an Oracal vinyl and have used the settings they suggest.

 

                                      Thanks Jimmy

 

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Top 150 Contributor
Red Deer, Alberta CANADA
Male

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about this topic. I, for one, couldn't understand why on earth you would be designing in RGB when you're outputting to a wide format CMYK printer. Just didn't seem logical. Decided I better get a handle on this as I was working with a CMYK palette and having trouble with getting predictable output.

I know I've mentioned it before in this thread but it's worth repeating. Go to the following link and download the "Designer's Guide to Color Management".

If it's not clear on the first read then read it again.

Basically...,

  • Design using an RGB palette.
  • Use the sRGB colour space.
  • Embed that sRGB colour profile in your document.
  • Make sure your RIP doesn't discard the sRGB profile when you import your document.
  • Let your RIP do the RGB -> LAB -> CMYK hokus-pokus - that's what it was designed to do.
  • Reap the benefits of a consistent, predictable, ICC compliant workflow. - You'll wish you'ld have done it ages ago!

Dan

Dan W. Armeneau Sign Artist Website Sign Designs Resume

I don't agree that rgb selections are limited, I used to design in cmyk and I found that a lot of the colours were a bit on the dull side for some reason. I really dont understand the colour management thing but all rgb colours that i use come out very nice when printed, I havent found a bad rgb colour, when printed  yet

Top 25 Contributor
Sweden
Male

chipster:
I havent found a bad rgb colour, when printed  yet
...which surprises me a lot. We all know that it is technically impossible to print (CMYK) anywhere near all the colors that can be seen in RGB, and that's why I keep asking how those working in RGB for print in CMYK do:
Are you using the Proof color function or do you have a special palette, or how do you get the colors to print correctly?


/Ronny

“The ability to think differently today from yesterday distinguishes the wise man from the stubborn”
John Steinbeck

Top 25 Contributor
Sweden
Male

Terremoto:
Go to the following link and download the "Designer's Guide to Color Management".
Here are a couple of quotes from that document:

"GDI printers expect RGB color data, so all non-RGB colors in a document, such as CMYK or Grayscale,
must be converted to the printer’s RGB color profile. It’s a good idea to design your document entirely
in RGB if all you plan to do is to print to a GDI printer."

"PostScript data can be sent directly to a PostScript printer, completely bypassing the GDI layer. One
thing that distinguishes PostScript from GDI is its extremely rich graphics model, which supports
different color models, including CMYK."

My interpretation is that if you're using a non-postscript printer (GDI), design in RGB to avoid unnecessary color conversions,
if you're sending to a Postcript printer/RIP, sending CMYK, or in fact any color model, will do just fine.
Please show me where it says that CMYK is not suitable, or as good as RGB, when sending data to a PostScript printer, which was the case in the initial poster's question.
(FYI, no I haven't read every line in the guide)

/Ronny

“The ability to think differently today from yesterday distinguishes the wise man from the stubborn”
John Steinbeck

Top 150 Contributor
Red Deer, Alberta CANADA
Male

Ronny Axelsson:

Please show me where it says that CMYK is not suitable, or as good as RGB, when sending data to a PostScript printer, which was the case in the initial poster's question.

The original poster said he was outputting to a Roland Versacamm. I'm pretty certain the Versacamm is NOT a Postscript printer and I'm guessing he's probably using VersaWorks as the RIP.

That being said, working in RGB would be the best advice I could offer. VersaWorks is not a top of the line RIP but it's quite capable and more than adequate for the majority of things but  it does expect RGB input.

Dan

Dan W. Armeneau Sign Artist Website Sign Designs Resume

Top 10 Contributor
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Male
TAG - MacroMonster.com

Terremoto:
The original poster said he was outputting to a Roland Versacamm. I'm pretty certain the Versacamm is NOT a Postscript printer and I'm guessing he's probably using VersaWorks as the RIP.

Yep, it's a PS device. Specifically a genuine PS 3 device, as opposed to a PS "emulated" one.

When printing devices cost as much as a  new car, chances are very high that part of the price includes PS technology as a feature.

Top 10 Contributor
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Male
TAG - MacroMonster.com

Ronny Axelsson:
I always design in CMYK but sometimes I leave RGB bitmaps as RGB * (just lazy or forget) and the difference is in most cases not noticeable.

I think one advantage to RGB is the ability to choose a wide range of output mediums from gloss to matte, and the inking adjusts to the materials at output time. another advantage could be smaller working files since there are 3 channels in a bitmap, not 4.

BUT Ronny, see one of the paragraphs from the CM guide that supports the way we work:


Top 150 Contributor
Red Deer, Alberta CANADA
Male

Jeff Harrison:

Yep, it's a PS device. Specifically a genuine PS 3 device, as opposed to a PS "emulated" one.

When printing devices cost as much as a  new car, chances are very high that part of the price includes PS technology as a feature.

Are you sure? Just took a quick look through Roland's website and didn't see any mention of the printer being a Postscript device. Checked the Specifications and Features pages and there's no mention there.

There is mention on this page of Postscript in relation to the VersaWorks RIP where it says:

" There is also support for hot folders, Apple Talk and a virtual Postscript driver by which you can print direct from your application to the RIP. "

and at the bottom of that page it says:

" VersaWorks is built on the Adobe PostScript CPSI RIP engine. "

It appears that the VersaWoks RIP is PostScript 3 licensed but I don't see where the printer device itself is.

I'm no expert on this by any means and PostScript / PostScript Licensing  can be quite confusing so maybe you're right. I'm not sure.

Dan

Dan W. Armeneau Sign Artist Website Sign Designs Resume

Top 10 Contributor
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Male
TAG - MacroMonster.com

Terremoto:
Are you sure? Just took a quick look through Roland's website and didn't see any mention of the printer being a Postscript device.

Well, the device itself likely only accepts a print stream from Versaworks. I suppose someone could "hack" the stream, but not really feasible.

In the old days, PS devices had Postscript circuit boards inside the device itself.

My understanding of Versaworks is that it RIPs PS data imported into it and sends a proprietary print stream to a Roland device. This is Instead of having a hardware version of Versaworks and a CPU processor inside the print unit itself.

A smart move on Roland's part.... any standard PC can RIP the files, and also retain the flexibility of being able to update Versaworks and the feature set as available. It's just using off-the-shelf hardware to do what was once self-contained inside the machine.

Terremoto:
...a virtual Postscript driver by which you can print direct from your application to the RIP.

It's possible to print directly to Versaworks from Draw's print engine. There's a postscript print driver avail from Roland for this, you can then choose it in any printer drop-down inside any windows app.

I've done some freelance tech help at print shops. Amazing how many of them installed PCL drivers for their devices, instead of PS.

After installing the PS drivers instead, magically less headaches, crashes, and anomalies on the press sheets.

Top 25 Contributor
Sweden
Male

Jeff Harrison:
My understanding of Versaworks is that it RIPs PS data imported into it and sends a proprietary print stream to a Roland device.
That's how I understand my Mimaki works too. The print data sent from the RIP (RasterLink in my case) is probably exclusively for Mimaki's printers.
So maybe it's a bit careless talking about the printer itself as a PS printer, but on the other hand it is definitely not a GDI printer.

/Ronny

“The ability to think differently today from yesterday distinguishes the wise man from the stubborn”
John Steinbeck

For what it's worth, I'm in the RGB camp as well

Versaworks is going to go ahead and convert to CMYK  anyway so it doesn't make much sense to me to start with a limited palette.

We always use RGB (not CMYK)............. even Pantone

 

 

Diane Jersey Girl
Top 25 Contributor
Grand Haven, Michigan
Male

I design in CMYK for the most part, but I leave images in RGB until print time, then I let the profiles do their thing.

Mike

Current System: i3 3.07ghz, 3gb ram, Windows 7 32 bit with all updates and X6

Top 25 Contributor
Sweden
Male

ColorYourWorld:
Versaworks is going to go ahead and convert to CMYK  anyway so it doesn't make much sense to me to start with a limited palette.
Dan didn't manage to convince about the benfits of going the RGB route, so maybe you can tell me why it makes sense to design with colors that won't print anyway? I can understand it makes sense for web work but not when it's going to be printed CMYK.

/Ronny

“The ability to think differently today from yesterday distinguishes the wise man from the stubborn”
John Steinbeck

Top 150 Contributor
Red Deer, Alberta CANADA
Male

Ronny Axelsson:

Dan didn't manage to convince about the benfits of going the RGB route, so maybe you can tell me why it makes sense to design with colors that won't print anyway? I can understand it makes sense for web work but not when it's going to be printed CMYK.

Here's a few benefits:

  • Redundant conversions are eliminated.
  • Your RIP expects RGB.
  • By starting with a larger palette you take advantage of the FULL array of colors your printer can output. (Especially if it's a 6 color.)
  • Your graphics are ready for web use without any time consuming changes.
  • Your graphics are ready for a GDI printer without any time consuming changes.

There's lots more in the "Designer's Guide to Color Management".

Dan

 

 

Dan W. Armeneau Sign Artist Website Sign Designs Resume

Ronny, Dan basically listed the reasons that make sense to me and a lot of the reasons we use RGB

In my mind, when you start with a limited CMYK palette, it almost seems like your getting a double conversion

It was a funny deal for me   

Coming from a screenprinting, predominately Pantone background,  the thing I was most concerned about when we first bought the VERSACAMM, was color management.

I read horror story after horror story about color issues, color matching, color inconsistencies

My trainor told me to use RGB, so I took a deep breath, forged ahead.........and never looked back

Since then I've read whatever I could and watched those Roland webinars till I know them like my favorite movies

Knocking on wood, I have to say, except for one time with one  pesky, totally unruly Adobe file, I've never had any of those color issues that  I was initially so scared about

RGB (for me)  as well as my old comfortable, dependable Pantones have been totally trouble free

 

 

 

 

 

 

Diane Jersey Girl
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